Transcendent Trust: An Interview with John Kesler, Founder of the Integral Polarity Practice Institute
In this episode of Mindfulness+ Thomas McConkie interviews John Kesler, founder of the Integral Polarity Practice Institute.
Click here to see Thomas’s first interview with John.
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Thomas: I thought because we're fortunate to have a few minutes with you today, we could explore the theme of trust that you teach about beautifully in integral polarity practice (IPP). So right out of the gate, let me ask you: What have you found to be the role of trust in this practice you've created?
John: Well, trust is a still point that arises in a relational environment. The way I hold it is using a polarity of agency and communion in any kind of relational environment — nature, spirit, organization. And whenever we have any kind of relational environment, instinctively we move towards fear in order to protect ourselves from the other, even within ourselves, the multiplicity within ourselves. Trust is a key still point to find a sense of peacefulness and openness to something deeper.
Thomas: Beautiful. Something that I've appreciated deeply about working with you the last 10 years is that a single sentence from you can take years to unpack. And what you just said there feels really significant. We're working with a polarity as basic as agency and communion — or on a more concrete level self and other — and every moment of our lives potentially we're experiencing ourselves in relationship, not just to other people, but also to the natural world and things outside of ourselves. We're also relating to aspects within ourselves. And any time we encounter anything there's the possibility of responding with fear and shrinking from that encounter. Is that a fair way to summarize?
John: Yes.
Thomas: Okay, cool. So that's what we're working with. As human beings, we're always in relationship with others and with ourselves. When we're presented with relationship, fear naturally arises. The practice of IPP is to notice these moments of encounter and intuitively find a still point. How would you describe the still point of trust? What's that experience like?
John: Well, in any polarity or multiplicity, it's bringing that energy to a still resting point of pure awareness so you're someplace a little bit deeper than your thinking mind. You're open to your deepest intuition or the Source, however you would define that. For instance, in the Eastern martial arts, it's finding that still place inside so you can respond in the moment appropriately. And yet from a place of peacefulness and fullness
Thomas: You're anticipating my next question, which is for people who are practicing mindfulness, who are interested in adult development, who are interested in just growing into the fullness of what they're capable of becoming, what's the practical value of learning to find a still point like trust? And I think you really just spoke to that. Beautiful. When you're in your Zen and you're trusting, how does life unfold for you in that space?
John: Most fundamentally from the Judeo-Christian tradition it’s “be still and know that I am God.” Be still. And you open yourself to your deepest source, your deepest place of knowledge, your deepest source of wisdom and compassion and appropriateness in the moment. And the skillful aspect of that all the myths and multiplicities and polarities serve out the spectrum of our being. How do we have a practice that helps us be still and centered and in that place of trust? Particularly how do I not react to the feedback loops of my past and the fears and problems that I've had to be able to be present to? How do I accept what's arising in the moment and assess it, and in a paradoxical way, know even more clearly what it is not to trust because I'm coming from a place of deeper trust?
Thomas: What you're saying is really profound, and as I'm listening in the moment, I'm hearing layer after layer of meaning and possibility opening up. What I hear you saying is that when we're in this still point, we're actually able to be radically present and see things as they are and therefore respond to them appropriately. On the other hand, if I can't access the still point of trust, I'm in a place of what some have called ego or struggle or reactivity and I'm actually responding to the present moment based on things that I've done in the past, which may or may not be helpful, which may or may not be appropriate in this brand new present moment. Is that a fair way to say?
John: Yeah, I think it is. And it doesn't mean that you don't have a memory of things that have happened or a track record with a particular person. But at the same time, if you can't get to that place of being very present and still you very well might be a little bit skewed in how you're reacting to the situation. Most important is being in contact with your very essence, your deepest place, both within yourself and that which you might rely on in terms of inspiration.
Thomas: Really beautiful, John. Thanks. I'm reading several books right now. One of them is from A. H. Almaas who is a spiritual teacher originally from Kuwait. He writes in this particular book called Facets of Unity about the Enneagram. What really struck me about the book is that he dedicates the first 50 pages or so to the topic of trust and he makes the claim that without a sense of what he calls basic trust — what you might call the still point of transcendent trust — we'll be afraid to let go into what the spiritual journey makes possible for us.
John: Yeah, that's nicely said. That's beautiful teaching.
Thomas: So yeah, let's hear a little bit more from A. H. Almaas in Facets of Unity. He writes, “If basic trust is present, the soul will more easily let go of old structures, will more easily settle into simply being and will tend to let its process unfold without interference, which will lead naturally toward essential development. Without basic trust the attitude of ego will predominate, the soul will lack implicit confidence in her life and process. The ego will try to take things into its own hands and manipulate, pushing things one way or the other, resulting in the further isolation and entrenchment of ego.” So as I read this, it's striking to me. Any response to that language from all Moss?
John: Well, my experience is that there are echoes of similarity in all the great teachings. I think if you search long enough you connect with the same sensibility. There are all sorts of words and phrases that are probably particular to his teaching. What is a soul and what is by ego? I don't really teach that one needs to let go of one's ego functions. You're the operating system that you have, and so you have to function in that way. But is there a self that's deeper than that? And what does that mean? In any event, the essence of what's taught there is very much what I try to share too.
Thomas: Yeah, there's a beautiful harmony here. If we had an entire season to dedicate to the highly evolved language of each spiritual system, I'm sure we'd see a lot of overlap, but also some very significant differences in the way you make distinctions and prioritize different things. Does that sound fair?
John: Sure. And then also that's the beauty of studying various teachers in various traditions because you have oftentimes just brilliant insights that come from in a way that you might have been blind to because your tradition doesn't hold them as richly. So it's just a wonderful opportunity to share teachers like this and explore and enrich yourself.
Thomas: I totally agree. You pointed to a bit of a paradox earlier that wise people are telling me that I need to learn how to trust, but so much of my life has been about being discerning about what not to trust. There are so many people and situations that I can't trust. How does that square with living in the still point of transcendent trust? So let me read A. H. Almaas, in anticipation of that problem. Almaas writes, “Basic trust means trusting enough to let your mind stop, to be silent within knowing that if there is something you need to know, the knowing will come. It means trusting that if you need to do something, you will be able to do it. It means accepting and trusting the silence, the stillness, the beingness. If we don't trust, we can't let our minds be silent and we can't let ourselves be still. We think we always have to be on the go, always making one thing or another happen or not happen. So we don't let our minds or our bodies rest. We believe that if our minds are quiet, when we need certain information, it is not going to be there. We believe that if our bodies are still, when we need to act, we won't be able to.” I hear him saying in so many words that if we don't find the still point, our whole existence will be defined by struggle. We won't trust our own intelligence and presence to respond appropriately to life and so we'll constantly be engaging in struggle. That's what I hear. I'm curious how that sounds to you and any comments you might have on it.
John: Not only is it incredibly important, but it relates to my years in working with 15 archetypal universal polarities that relate to each stage of human development. When you become aware of the relational environment and all the still points that I work with, trust is the one that people I facilitate have the most difficult time achieving. Even though that is at the center of many practices and faith traditions, to find that inner peace or that inner stillness. It's a tough one because our whole life is negotiating with the things that we can't really trust in or that we might fear. And so it needs to be a central part of any practice in order to feel like you have established a deep stillness within.
Thomas: I love this, and it occurs to me as you're talking John that another polarity we can introduce into our conversation here is between the relative and the absolute. This is a classic polarity in Buddhism, and it seems to me that there's relative or conditional trust and then there is having access to a profound stillness and a transcendent trust of our deepest knowing. And somehow those two can work together. Do you see where I'm going here?
John: Yeah, exactly. As a matter of practice, most people will have to move from one to the other, particularly in the beginning, to be able to achieve that deep meditative place. But ultimately the gift of any polarity is to understand that they come together and you can hold them both in a deeply interpenetrate way so that one can be in the world with a deep sense of peacefulness and stillness. Through that, we can be all the more active and flowing and involved in determining what's appropriate in the moment. We can ask, “What can I trust? What can I trust at your deepest level?” Not coming from a place of fear, but coming from a place of fullness. And abundance.
Thomas: Beautiful John. I love that. It’s coming alive in me as we're talking here. You know, this practice of naming transcendent trust and acknowledging that there's a different quality of trust than relative trust and that we can hold transcendent trust and relative trust in our lives together and that makes both qualities of trust more powerful. That's really beautiful.
I have a story about this. When I was in my mid twenties, I had graduated from college and moved to Europe after and then spent years in mainland China. I was interested in foreign cultures and foreign languages. By the time I was in my mid twenties, I was pretty proficient in Spanish and Mandarin, but I didn't know what I wanted to do with it. I wanted to work in the world. I just don't know how. And I had this funny impulse. moved back to Salt Lake City where I grew up, and there was this little nonprofit restaurant called One World where everybody eats. I would go in there, and the food was just glowing and the people who were working there were just glowing. There was just this profound sense of generosity that was palpable. And it didn't make any sense rationally to me, but I knew as I was holding this inquiry of what I wanted to do in my career, I thought my first step was to just sit in this kitchen and soak in whatever goodness, whatever was feeling there. I thought, “This is inspiring me, and I have this sense that it will open me up to my next phase in life.” Of course, my parents panicked because my career was stalling. I was in my mid twenties, and I still hadn't gotten a job. The owners that run One World would make jokes that they had a trilingual dishwasher who was making minimum wage. It didn't make any sense. But in my deepest knowing, I just knew if I just stayed still there and just washed dishes and really learned the generosity that this group of very beautiful people was practicing, something would happen. And I did it for several months and something out of the ether formed. And I eventually did find a job that allowed me to use my language skills, and I got to travel throughout the world. And it came from dishwashing. That's what I put on my resume to get my first real dream job in my late twenties. And that was about the time I met you as well, and you were teaching me a little bit about transcendent trust. So I don't think that's a coincidence.
John: Yeah, that's a beautiful story.
Thomas: Anything from you? Any moments? I tend to be a dramatic storyteller, but there can be really simple moments. Do you remember a moment recently or anytime where you felt this deep sense of trust, that it was coming from a deeper place than your personality?
John: At one point in my life I was a card carrying atheist. I was cut off from any sense that there was anything beyond, anything transcendent, anything deeper than the functioning of the human being. And then I intuitively moved into this sense of trust and stillness through meditation practice. And it occurred to me that trust is reaching the still point through a third-person experience — I trust that over there — versus communion, which is a second-person experience with Source. And I just remember the devastating moment when I realized the whole superstructure of my belief system was deteriorating. It just cascaded into a realization of the value of the second-person experience, and I realized it needed to be part of a more complete practice.
Thomas: That's beautiful, John. It, it sounds like as a card carrying atheist, somehow you cracked open to the possibility that you could come into that second-person relationship with something greater than yourself. And if you could come into communion with it that some part of you could totally merge with it and be in union with it. And that led to a new chapter in your life. Is that right?
John: Yes. And it also opened up the door to exploring various traditions because most traditions specialize in a couple of these perspectives, but not all of them. I think all these perspectives are very valuable and they're all implicitly available in every tradition. I don't necessarily mean you have to find “God” or you have to find a sense of unity with all things, and that's all there is. There are all sorts of names for it, but the power of that experience can be so grounding and so meaningful in one's life that it's worth having a practice that's open to multiple perspectives in that regard.
Thomas: Beautiful words, John. We'll close on that. Thank you so much for your presence and your insights. I wonder as we close, if you could invoke this sense of this still point that facilitates us into trust.
John: Yeah. Why don't we just close our eyes to get into a meditative moment. And one of the things that just arises from every still point is a quality of hopefulness and love. And to the extent we can bring this sense of hopefulness and love forward, it helps us to center and be more peaceful in a place of trust, a deep transcendent trust.
Is there anywhere you can find that place of trust without limitation, the divine God, your highest self, a deep sense of oneness? And from a place of trust, move to a second-person relationship of communion — and commune and commune and commune. And feel a sense of no separation.
And in this moment experience a quality of no other — not two. And as you come out of this quality, feel the sense of transcendent hopefulness that arises out of a deep presence of love. That fruit flows through you as a universal quality that you can become the vehicle for. That relationship is all about love facing every moment. No matter how dire is an opportunity for hopefulness to bless those around you and yourself. And even as you are present with the circumstances of life and the need to make conditional judgments about what is to be trusted, know that ultimately it's all about love and that you can trust in that.
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